Tuesday, March 18, 2025

Thirty Minutes Dept. - With The Avant-Garde

Vaudeville funsters Joseph Beuys and Pina Bausch slapstick, yesterday. Copyright Foam-O-Graph© for Artificial Ignorance Corp.

 (This is work in progress, and I'd appreciate some thoughts before I wrap it up.)

Defining avant-garde is as tricky as defining art; a quick study of musicologist brow-furrowing on the subject leads to the conclusion that a precise or useful definition is impossible, due to the extreme variety of works that either claim to be or are cited as avant-garde.

The gimlet-eyed among you will have noted the subtitle to this collection: Volume I Challenging Societal Mores. It includes the type of music that most would agree is avant-garde; the difficult, antagonistic, atonal, dissonant, ugly, joyless, dreary, pretentious ... okay, you get the drift.

I've used as my template Justice Potter Stewart's view on pornography - essentially, I can't define it but I know it when I see it. Nobody is going to whistle this shit in the shower. Volume II, should I recover enough to curate it, will be music that doesn't stray too far from what the man in the street (who is me, woh-oh oh-oh-oh, I talk the way I wanna talk) might consider interesting at worst, enjoyable at best. To shoe-horn Debussy into Vol. I would be ridiculous, but he'll be in swell company for Vol. II.

I already have some of the usual suspects up against the wall for this, but if you have any suggestions, they will be treated with my usual patronising indifference. Please bear in mind that the closer they are to recognisable music, the further they are from the concept. This is one Thirty Minutes that nobody in his - or hey! her! - right mind, or even armchair, would sit through voluntarily.

Use space below for your notes - use regular ballpoint or Sharpie:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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78 comments:

  1. I just read that they have remastered Metal Machine Music. There's my suggestion.

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    1. Yup. He's A-listed, alongside Chrome (extract from Half Machine Lip Moves), Yoko Ono (Don't Worry + 1), Stockhausen (Helicopter Quartet), Cage (4'33"), and Cornelius Cardew/Scratch Orchestra (Live London '69). That's about fifteen unbearable minutes right there. I'd like some really extreme free jazz, totally tuneless, chaotic noise. No scales, rhythm, chords - any specific track suggestions (artist suggestions aren't really helpful) ? Also electronic - nothing spacey/ambient, has to be horrible grating, piercing noise.

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    2. товарищ Mangelsdorf:
      https://mega.nz/folder/OcMmCb5L#7c5XA_4KWFLOXOzc2A6HSQ

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    3. Not sure how this slipped my mind, but this is a def for your list: Infinity Symbol by Aphrodite's Child. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq5jFa_7Agc&list=PLiN-7mukU_RFYaNcoUCzp3BMran_vq7Yz&index=21

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    4. Death Ambient (even though it says ambient)

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    5. Maybe Das Schaben by Einstürzende Neubauten, In Extremis by Organum (intro of #1 is exceptional) Machine Gun by Peter Brötzmann

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    6. Missed your comment, Richard. Very promising.

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    7. pmac, I hadn't much hope for this, but it qualifies. Ghastly, I hate it, thank you.

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    8. When it was first released, that got a lot of airplay on one of the local radio stations - by listeners' requests! Jeff Tweedy said its like someone recorded a Manson family orgy.

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    9. Finally heard MMM recently and was pleasantly surprised. It gets a bit samey but it's shimmeringly scraping and full of abrasive light.

      For unlistenable Free Jazz try Baden-Baden Festival 1971 or a few acts on the Clean Feed label. 'Machine Gun' repelled me as soon as I heard it. Semi-Acoustic thrash. The following item I like but can see that it would divide the audience - https://youtu.be/e8FkVqJFApc

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    10. This exactly the type of sax playing I have in mind, but I detect some actual chords happening behind it. If only Mantler had shut up, this would be in.

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  2. anything here qualifies I gave to a freind but still remember Internal noise which consists of a wire strung across a canadian church and plucked sounded best....

    https://www.discogs.com/release/931666-Various-Revolutions-Per-Minute-The-Art-Record

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    1. That concept appeals - do you recall which track it was?

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  3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb6WrWIh1YM&ab_channel=DustyGrooves69

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    1. Thanks for this, but it's altogether too listenable. Trippy vocal effects over hippie bongos.Nice!

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  4. The Atomic Alphabet is a banger...https://youtu.be/f8zmY6asfRM?feature=shared

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    1. Ye-es .. and no. Has a discernible meaning/intent, too understandable. Not painful.

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  5. Not sure if this will fit. Just over 3 minutes of Bo Ningen, four androgynous Japanese noisemerchants, unfortunately it almost has a tune towards the end, but at least the vocals are in Japanese.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnuF1_fq538

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    1. Only 45 seconds in, and I'm hearing chords,a regular beat, and a melodic progression. And I quite like it.

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    2. They apparently played a live improvisation to Jodorowsky's The Holy Mountain, but I'm too afraid to watch that.

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  6. This sort of thing is more fun to make than to listen to.

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    1. It'll be an endurance test. But Vol. II "Easy Listening And Light Entertainment" should be a breeze.

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  7. If you're looking for "difficult," you can't go wrong with Sunny Murray: https://youtu.be/Hc3byDMEv1k

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    1. I'll be auditioning this and the other hopefuls when I've had a roborative beverage and a bracing constitutional.

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    2. Thank you. But there's too much structure about it, too much that isn't just random noise for its own sake. There's some melody, some rhythm, and enough musicians playing off (as opposed to against) each other for it to qualify as free jazz, rather than avant garde. But an interesting suggestion.

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  8. How about Song From The Bottom Of A Well? I have a slight problem fittings it together with anything Else, that's the snag.

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    1. The first minute is very nearly authentic, and then it turns into a song. Had he just repeated that first minute ...

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  9. nice intro (30s): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIttnGNLGFc

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    1. Thanks, but it's a rock group doing sound collage (see comment below).

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  10. Penderecki!! https://youtu.be/Dp3BlFZWJNA?si=-f62X2bcloaCxh0c

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  11. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAaXSsoKVQg
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECrUIrbDPFQ

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    1. Music On A Long Thin Wire *sounds like* minimalism to me. It's a fine line ...
      But the Grogeigege (whatver) is definitely in the running, and I hate it. Thank you.

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  12. Maybe ABBA ? . . . Carpenters? (am I misunderstanding this?)

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  13. there's a live version of James Blood Ulmer's "Noise and Clamor" floating around that in my memory was more clamor than noise, but respectable on both counts; the recorded version is downright musical...

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    1. That's the problem. I've thought of a few associated with the avant-garde, like Sun Ra and The Art Ensemble Of Chicago, but a skim through their huge output reveals nothing too challenging. Sonny Sharrock's another ... this is music. Fred Frith, however, is more interesting than I gave him credit for, and he'll definitely be on Vol. II.

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    2. Henry Cow and the various offshoots, could be a useful seam, but that's beyond my pay-grade.

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    3. As much as I dislike Henry Cow - really, everything about them, the po-faced pretentious pillocks - they're too musical to be included here. So that's another reason for me to dislike them.

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  14. Jodorowsky's El Topo I loved that movie !!! Greaser's Palace was another favorite of mine...anyway there's Rhys Chatham Don Pullen & Sam Rivers Leroy Jenkins early Zorn and that crowd. great music back then

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  15. Derek Bailey- David Holland's Improvisations for cello and guitar (an ECM release) is to me like a couple of mice mating in the fridge.
    Chrome's Half Machine is a longtime favourite listen to me. And all in one shot the better.
    It's not avant garde to me (and they may never pretended to be) but mutant rock'n'roll.
    Bat

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  16. Thanks for both these, Bat. I'll give Chrome another listen (it's been a while) - I can't imagine ever finding it enjoyable, but it could well *not* be avant-garde in any sense.
    There's an entire sub-genre of rock musicians dressing up as avant-garde, mainly through sound collages (Revolution #9 being a successful example, or just being noisy.

    Anyone got an Einsturtzende Neubaten suggestion? Perhaps Faust? I don't think Can was ever avant garde, nor Trout Mask.

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    1. Wow. Dave Holland and Derek Bailey in with a bullet. "Mice mating in the fridge" indeed!

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    2. 'Headcleaner' by EN is a tough listen. Faust's first ST LP never really appealed. Can's wildest sides are perhaps the magnificent 'Peking O' and the less-so 'Soup'. Beefheart is a good choice as I can only take a few minutes of his wilfuly eccentric "outsider" persona at a time.

      Might I suggest the wretched music-theatre of Scott Walker's 'Bisch Bosch'? I couldn't bring myself to listen to more than a couple of tracks.

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    3. Scott Walker is a good choice. It's good that pmac doesn't care what I think (and why should he) but Engel is dreadful, both in his poetic pop warbling phase (when he was backed by the finest of British easy listening musicians) and his later share-my-artistic-despair period, when he got taken seriously for taking himself seriously. Self-seriousness and "heavy intellectualism" is key to the avant-garde.

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    4. Why sir, such blasphemy shall not be allowed!!!! I challenge thee to a duel!!!! (sniff.... I really do care.....)

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    5. I loved Scott's stuff up until 'The Drift', you utter bastard. A great lost talent whose self-absorbedness got the better of him. Perhaps he didn't have the character adequate to his talent (like Nick Drake or Bix?) or lived in London too long. But the latterday fawning over his induction into the cult of deliberate ugliness and perversity was repellent.

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  17. Sun Ra's Fireside Chat with Lucifer (side Fireside, was a crowd cleaner in my dj days)
    But, what is avant-garde 2025. A 100 years ago Edgar Varese, Schonberg and Stravinski were fore-runners, as were some of the people highlighted here in the 60s 70s and 80s. Again 40 years on, me, I am used to so much different music that I do not feel music upfronting me.
    New music, in a world were we have seen, and heard it all. There must be some 21st century unlistenable serious music. Havent found it yet

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    1. Pretty much anything that gets programmed at the Huddersfield Contemporary Music Festival in the last 15 years. Not that it's all deafening or dissonant - just wretched Left-ist cultural politics' shadow cast in wretched sound.

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    2. In the cause of transparency, whenever I've had the opportunity to vote I always went for the candidate closest to socialism, the political movement that made England (don't care much about the rest of the UK) the best place in the world to live for the blink of an eye - before I was born, I hope coincidentally.
      Cornelieus Cardew genuinely believed he was making anti-bourgeois music for the common working man. Avant-garde is a bourgeois, elitist niche. Find that clip of the live performance of Cage's 4:33 to witness bourgeois self-celebration at its most sickening - the audience is ("literally", as young people like to say) applauding itself.

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    3. This is great stuff, sort of RIO-lite, with hilarious posh-boy urging the plebs to unite around his artisan tranny-underwear boutique -

      https://youtu.be/XEN2gk5uxVU?list=PLGeDQ4A_8AV509WbKQQ0H4We09nxdtBHt

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    4. "Comments are turned off", as am I. Thank you. I think.

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  18. There are some tunes by Coil I find irresistable, maybe something for you. For your listening pleasure, use headphones. Absolutely Elsewhere, Sicktone, The Pope Held Upside Down (with Boyd Rice), Caged Birds, or if you have a nervous disposition, How To Destroy Angels

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  19. Reg Bloor will make your ears bleed…but in a good way. www.regbloor.com

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    1. Egregious Harmonics! This probably qualifies, being a)unlistenable and b)asking the musical question, what is music?

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  20. somethign from the A Tent album on cherry red [with don cherry] and anything by Metabolist

    https://www.discogs.com/release/824165-A-Tent-Six-Empty-Places?srsltid=AfmBOopIHDExsN8fSRGq6rt1oxlYhLapE3718Ro4YhBLX5g6wf69hBlv

    https://www.discogs.com/artist/149287-Metabolist?srsltid=AfmBOorBaDVzlySiRinoHHBf7zHzEoGhNwLfgUf6RDjVgejCq6pd1H7-

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  21. Studies for Player Piano - Conlon Nancarrow, might work

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    1. Conlon Nancarrow! Of course! Right up there with Cornelius Cardew! What a swell vaudeville double act they'd have made.

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  22. Perhaps this was not the intention, but I have enjoyed a lot of the suggestions made here. Metabolist, A Tent, Nancarrow, Bailey/Holland, for me it is a joyfull re-meeting of old friends.
    I got my Roscoe Mitchell Noonah album out, 17 minutes solo sax

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    1. I think a few people will enjoy this challenging audio initiative. Even I will, in a weird way.

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    1. Well, not really, the only LP I own is https://www.discogs.com/release/516149-Borbetomagus-New-York-Performances. But as far as I know, ‘anything’ is just as - clear my throat - GOOD.

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  24. Thanks to all th' 4/5g© for the suggestions - a lot of them will be included. Now I have to summon up the courage and dive into Audacity ... watch this space ...

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  25. How about something from Frank Zappa, Civilisation Phaze III? Secular Humanism is a real toe tapper. - if you ain't got it, give me a shout Farq.

    Thrakattak album by King Crimson has a lot of challenging content you may like for this project.

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    1. Pretty sure I have everything Zappa stuck to magnetic tape. It's a difficult question if he was ever part of (or considered himself to be part of) the avant-garde. My guess is not - he was as close to it as he was to pop, or contemporary classicism.
      King Crimson is straight ahead jazz-rock, and very musical in a musical sense. One man's challenging is another's boring!

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  26. A (forbidding) musical hero of mine, on a very very 'off' day, poking about on some synths with his talented missus - https://youtu.be/Okfdhx_FuIg

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    1. I like a lot of this. Spacey, Ligeti with a dash of Stockhausen ... nope.

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  27. Please! Societal norms have been challenged enough! Leave me to my miserable task!

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    1. Seriously, dudes! Wit' th' avant-garde, enough awready!

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  28. ... just got that:
    https://www.discogs.com/de/release/1092449-Shapta-Retrotest-Untitled
    https://mega.nz/folder/KMF2gQJQ#FRzZyQU83MRkOBRW63f9Qw

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  29. Dang! I forgot to send this, am I too late?

    This is "music" I made myself in the peoples republic of Vancouver BC:

    https://vimeo.com/399040475

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  30. I have more than I need. I've blocked it out to fill half an hour in Audacity, just visually, editing in extracts (no entire works here). Now I need to man up and plug in the speakers to see if anything can be made of this utterly unlistenable hateful pretentious shite. I'll do it over the weekend, and then we can put the whole sorry mess behind us and turn to face the light. What worries me is that a certain few of you - sick, twisted souls whose deep-seated neuroses have made you society's rejects - will actually ... you know ... *shudder* ... enjoy it ...

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  31. OK, I understand. But, to make it easier on yourself, why not just take a 30 minute cut of:

    https://vimeo.com/399040475

    Same result!

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    1. Whaddya whaddya - why, for two cents I'd *SMEKKITY-SMEK*

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